ABS Woes - Need Assistance (pics attached)

Help with printing with specific plastic filaments.
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bladerunner
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ABS Woes - Need Assistance (pics attached)

Post by bladerunner » Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:34 am

Hi gang,

As I've mentioned before, I'm new to 3D printing as of last week, and aside from my initial octopus test print, I haven't had what I would consider a successful print since. Very frustrating. I'm hoping the community experts can help me trace down the issue(s) and help me resolve them.

Here's what I would like to know for each Exhibit.

1) What is common terminology for this particular phenomenon?
2) What's likely causing it?
3) How do I resolve or mitigate the issue?

My specs for these prints:

Lulzbot Mini
.5mm extruder
ABS (IC3D High Quality Green 3mm ABS - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00TVL4R2G)
Extruder temp: 240C
Bed temp: 110C
Fan: Off
Slicer: Cura
Settings: Usually the default "high quality" setting or a slight variation of that

EXHIBIT A
(http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:901128)

IMAGES
https://goo.gl/photos/7RMmkAbxAosPdzFP6
https://goo.gl/photos/XcpATBuw8WPDJ2u56

The top 75% of the print looks amazing. If the entire print looked like this I would be ecstatic. What's going on in the first layers!?!


EXHIBIT B
(http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:359008)

IMAGES
https://goo.gl/photos/bXrB1oWqcKg93VQ67

Bridging looks terrible from the bottom up. The other side towards the top of the model the bridging looks better but still not great. How do I resolve this without bracing? This model was specifically designed not to need any bracing.


EXHIBIT C
(http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:359008)

IMAGES
https://goo.gl/photos/exqfKES2KH6V3rhx7
https://goo.gl/photos/9VAsNcLXRGGecW8h7

The bottom side looks uneven and rough compared with the top side. What's going on here?


EXHIBIT D
(http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:359008)

IMAGES
https://goo.gl/photos/T6m2CepKiSZQQsKh8
https://goo.gl/photos/w3zLvbzxav6892TY6

This is the only time I've seen this phenomenon happen that I can recall. The overall thickness to the model seems to have increased after the line. Also, the line is more predominant towards the front of the vehicle and then sort of "blends" in towards the back. What's going on here?


EXHIBIT E
(Cura_18.03/novelties/vanderbuilt_mansion)

IMAGES
https://goo.gl/photos/F9YbDTYvBNWjNbrY8
https://goo.gl/photos/zKCXoZcsXH9Rbxy67

This is obviously delamination of the layers. I think room temperature and possibly humidity levels maybe causing this. What is the recommended room temperature and humidity levels for printing ABS? Is there anything else that might be going on here that could be exasperating the problem?


FIRST PRINTS
(Cura_18.03/novelties/rocktopus)
Factory HIPS material provided by Aleph Objects

IMAGES
https://goo.gl/photos/xnEYU9Gv1D2esnyd6

After having all of these issues, I went back and closely looked at my first prints. The print that was printing by the factory looks really good. Initially I thought my first print was near perfect, but after looking at it more closely I can see there is some evidence of some overhang issues as pointed out in the above photo. What can I do to help mitigate this?

Any help you guys can provide would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure all of these issues are a result from my inexperience, so I'd like to learn what causes this issues and how to tweak my print process to neutralize them as much as possible.

I did a rough check of my e-Steps (don't have an accurate way to measure mm) and it looks to be pretty spot on. I'm getting a set of digital calipers in the mail today, so I will go back and re-check it, along with measuring my filament width.

Thanks in advance for your help!
Last edited by bladerunner on Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Michael
Lulzbot Mini
.5mm Dispenser Nozzle

david
Aleph Objects | LulzBot
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:47 am

Re: ABS Woes - Need Assistance (pics attached)

Post by david » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:42 pm

Hello, The filament that you are printing with has properties that are different than any other filament. ABS filament radiates thermally faster than other filaments. This causes the ambient temperature to be a significant factor in adhesion, layer adhesion and bridging issues. The one photo of the car window was due to no support structure included. The other photos are due to the ambient temperature, cooling the ABS too rapidly, so that it does not have time to adhere. Please turn off your 40mm fan so that your filament will adhere better. Also, most people that wish to print primarily with ABS, will build an enclosure around their printer, to maintain temperature and reduce these issues. Build a simple plexiglas enclosure with a hinged door to maintain temperature. We operate our printers that are printing ABS at an ambient temperature of 90 degrees. Try some of this and see what success you may have.

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bladerunner
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Re: ABS Woes - Need Assistance (pics attached)

Post by bladerunner » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:46 pm

Thanks David,

I should have mentioned that the fan was off on all of these. Building an enclosure is definitely something that is on my agenda. However, after switching back to HIPS I'm still have a number of issues.
Michael
Lulzbot Mini
.5mm Dispenser Nozzle

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CoParaTech
Posts: 196
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Re: ABS Woes - Need Assistance (pics attached)

Post by CoParaTech » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:15 pm

Here is a great link to common print problems and their cures. This is hosted on the Simplfy3D site but it applies to all printers and software. Studying these should help tremendously. https://www.simplify3d.com/support/prin ... eshooting/

PeterT
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Re: ABS Woes - Need Assistance (pics attached)

Post by PeterT » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:40 pm

Well, I would start by saying; nothing like jumping into the deep end!

That being said you're attempting to print some very complex models. The car is complex for two reasons (at least); 1. It has excessive bridging, 2. It does not have a flat surface.

On the mansion PRI t, you are delaminating. That's either a temp. Issue or a Z offset issue.

OK, here's my .02

For the car, primarily, it's two things, how you position the car for print in the first place. You look to have really good first layer, and looking at the license plate, it looks like you've got things pretty well dialed. Looking at the hub of the wheel this is the same bisging issue as the window frames. There is just so far you can bridge depending on distance and thickness of bridge. As for the flat side of the car, the surface on the print bed that actually looks fine, give . That's the first layer. Ifg you want to reorient the car, you'll get different results. Remember, if you attempt printing wheels down you'll want a raft, at least, to get good adhesion.

Now with the mansion, this is likely an ambient temp issue, given that the car, for all the issues your having, looks really good. This is likely due to cool air getting to the layer before it has time to adhere correctly.

You should search for "benchy", the torture test for printer calibration. The car you are attempting to print has many similar. Properties.
Taz 5
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Raspberry Pi w/ Octoprint and remote power control
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bladerunner
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Re: ABS Woes - Need Assistance (pics attached)

Post by bladerunner » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:49 pm

Thanks CoParaTech,

Do you have any suggestions for mitigating the issues I'm seeing in the first example (the cat)? The lower part looks terrible, but the top 75% is near perfect.
Michael
Lulzbot Mini
.5mm Dispenser Nozzle

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CoParaTech
Posts: 196
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Re: ABS Woes - Need Assistance (pics attached)

Post by CoParaTech » Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:28 am

To me, it looks like you're getting a little too much heat from the bed building up at the bottom layers. I'd try reducing the bed temp a few degrees and see if that clears it up.

ScottW
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Re: ABS Woes - Need Assistance (pics attached)

Post by ScottW » Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:05 pm

bladerunner wrote: example (the cat)? The lower part looks terrible, but the top 75% is near perfect.
I fought that exact problem on some ABS prints recently, and tried various extruder/bed temps and fan settings without success.

I concluded the cause was a combination of the shape and characteristics of ABS. It seems to happen most on objects that "curve up and out" as they build up from the bed, like that cat model does. As the first few layers cool and shrink, they pull inward and (because of the somewhat conical shape) distort upward. That causes the previous layers to be too close -- even touching -- the print head as it tries to lay down a successive layer. Because the previous layer has moved upward, the plastic being extruded on the next layer has no place to go and "squishes outward" which causes the rough exterior.

In the end, I was unable to solve the problem using ABS. A very warm (like 80c+) heated enclosure would likely help, but I was not able to try that.

My final solution was to simply use a different material. HIPS eliminated about 95% of the problem, and PETG eliminated 99%.

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bladerunner
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Re: ABS Woes - Need Assistance (pics attached)

Post by bladerunner » Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:54 am

Scott I think you are spot on in your assessment of that particular issue. However, I'm having similar issues with HIPS. Could you share your HIPS settings? I'd like to compare yours with mine.

Thanks!
Michael
Lulzbot Mini
.5mm Dispenser Nozzle

kcchen_00
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Re: ABS Woes - Need Assistance (pics attached)

Post by kcchen_00 » Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:17 am

I haven't printed a sphere to check the underside in a while, but I had the same problems with a pumpkin a few years back.

My fix was to slow down the print speed (at least for the underside) and increase my infill overlap (which I think may be a bug in S3D, but worked to my advantage).

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