Bubbles Under Brand New Heated Beds (Yes Plural)

A forum dedicated to the stock LulzBot TAZ 3D Printer
silent_ninja1
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:12 am

Re: Bubbles Under Brand New Heated Beds (Yes Plural)

Post by silent_ninja1 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:53 am

Ive been using thicker cshyde pei sheets on most of my machines, or polypropelene plates. I found that the frequency of needing to replace them was much better. The adhesive seems to be much better. I had 1 sheet outlast 4 lulzbot sheets, so now I just buy there. Its cheaper and better, so win/win. These work great on the 500mm CR10S5's and 400mm Cr10S4 and Formbot TRex2+ I have as well, so size isnt a problem.

https://catalog.cshyde.com/item/pei-ult ... 1-81x11-81

I tried itworks3d for awhile, but they seemed to suffer the same issues as lulzbot.

ductsoup
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:05 pm
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Bubbles Under Brand New Heated Beds (Yes Plural)

Post by ductsoup » Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:48 pm

Just upgraded my Mini to the modular bed. So far zero problems, really like it. Opted to go glass up and leave my other Mini with the factory PEI up. For PLA on PEI I usually go with 60, maybe 65C depending on the geometry. For PLA on glass I'm finding 65-70C works a little better.

smack
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:34 am

Re: Bubbles Under Brand New Heated Beds (Yes Plural)

Post by smack » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:28 pm

I had replaced my bed three times due to bubbling and was very hopeful Lulzbot was going to have the problem fixed on the modular bed. I emailed Lulzbot prior to buying it and they assured me that the adhesive would not have bubbling problems and is good for the temperature.

The bed arrived looking pristine... then... I had small bubbles on the modular bed after one 30 minute print. Picture attached below.

So I emailed Lulzbot- I told them there is a problem with the adhesive and it's bubbling as soon as you turn the heat on. They replied that they think the bubbling is NORMAL! I strongly disagree- an appropriate adhesive should have no bubbling whatsoever... I was directed to the 3M datasheet for the adhesive, which does say it is good for high temperature (for short time periods), though it doesn't say at what air pressure, which is also quite important. It's probably showing the temperature the adhesive is good for at sea level- and bubbles are more likely to form at higher altitudes and higher bed temperatures. Or maybe it's water or alcohol trapped under there and vaporizing with heat, from an improper installation. After seeing it happen a number of times, I believe it's some light hydrocarbon residue in the adhesive which is vaporizing.

I have also attached images after 10 prints and 20 prints. The bubbles grow every print. When I asked Lulzbot how they would like to address this issue they told me it's really no problem, but if I wanted to I could only return it within 30 days and I would be left without a bed... so much for the renowned service.

The bubbles normally take more than a month to become a problem under what I would consider normal hobby use (and they seem to become a real bad problem every time if you're printing ABS or PETG!), and then Lulzbot will not help you once they grow larger and you have a bubbled bed problem after a couple months. Replacing the bed is a pain- start to finish its a couple hours with a razorblade and I just can't bring myself to do it again knowing it will just bubble AGAIN. You can pierce them with a razorblade, but the bubbled area doesn't really stick properly anymore once it has bubbled.

Lulzbot seems to have no plans to address the problem or make it right with customers that have spent hundreds of dollars on beds which are garbage after very little print time. Once the bubbles are large enough, they cause major adhesion problems due to thermally insulating the print from the bed, and they cause physical deformity of the print. Once large enough the bubbles literally move around during the print and pop your print off.
one print.JPG
ten prints.JPG
twenty prints.JPG

silent_ninja1
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:12 am

Re: Bubbles Under Brand New Heated Beds (Yes Plural)

Post by silent_ninja1 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:23 am

FYI, i can change one in 15 minutes or so using rapid remover

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006R ... UTF8&psc=1

Get the cshyde sheet and chances are itll outlast the machine unless you crash it.
smack wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:28 pm
I had replaced my bed three times due to bubbling and was very hopeful Lulzbot was going to have the problem fixed on the modular bed. I emailed Lulzbot prior to buying it and they assured me that the adhesive would not have bubbling problems and is good for the temperature.

The bed arrived looking pristine... then... I had small bubbles on the modular bed after one 30 minute print. Picture attached below.

So I emailed Lulzbot- I told them there is a problem with the adhesive and it's bubbling as soon as you turn the heat on. They replied that they think the bubbling is NORMAL! I strongly disagree- an appropriate adhesive should have no bubbling whatsoever... I was directed to the 3M datasheet for the adhesive, which does say it is good for high temperature (for short time periods), though it doesn't say at what air pressure, which is also quite important. It's probably showing the temperature the adhesive is good for at sea level- and bubbles are more likely to form at higher altitudes and higher bed temperatures. Or maybe it's water or alcohol trapped under there and vaporizing with heat, from an improper installation. After seeing it happen a number of times, I believe it's some light hydrocarbon residue in the adhesive which is vaporizing.

I have also attached images after 10 prints and 20 prints. The bubbles grow every print. When I asked Lulzbot how they would like to address this issue they told me it's really no problem, but if I wanted to I could only return it within 30 days and I would be left without a bed... so much for the renowned service.

The bubbles normally take more than a month to become a problem under what I would consider normal hobby use (and they seem to become a real bad problem every time if you're printing ABS or PETG!), and then Lulzbot will not help you once they grow larger and you have a bubbled bed problem after a couple months. Replacing the bed is a pain- start to finish its a couple hours with a razorblade and I just can't bring myself to do it again knowing it will just bubble AGAIN. You can pierce them with a razorblade, but the bubbled area doesn't really stick properly anymore once it has bubbled.

Lulzbot seems to have no plans to address the problem or make it right with customers that have spent hundreds of dollars on beds which are garbage after very little print time. Once the bubbles are large enough, they cause major adhesion problems due to thermally insulating the print from the bed, and they cause physical deformity of the print. Once large enough the bubbles literally move around during the print and pop your print off.

one print.JPG
ten prints.JPG
twenty prints.JPG

bentwookie
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:20 pm

Re: Bubbles Under Brand New Heated Beds (Yes Plural)

Post by bentwookie » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:20 pm

When bought my Taz 6, it came with a super bubbly bed. Even before my first print. I complained and expected them to ship out a new bed. Nope. They sent a square of PEI and told me to get scraping. My printer came so out of square it couldn't level. Here's the 27 step procedure we couldn't be bothered to run at the shop. You do it.

Oh neat! An enclosure for my Taz so my ABS parts don't warp. We could have sent along the 25 cents of injection molded plastic to assemble it...nah you print 13 hours worth of as-yet-warpy ABS parts to build it!

This is the company's MO these days. Pack any old out-of-square pile of crap in a box and make you fix it, after they have your $2,500. I'll never buy another one.

smack
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:34 am

Re: Bubbles Under Brand New Heated Beds (Yes Plural)

Post by smack » Wed May 02, 2018 4:36 pm

I unfortunately would have to say I mostly agree. I was pretty disappointed in the support I received for the modular bed (bubbled after 1st print). I had even asked Lulzbot before buying it if the new modular bed would bubble- and was told NO. Then I was told to just return the bubbled bed and be charged a 15% restocking fee at my own shipping cost before 30 days, and be left with no bed at all... As the bubbling is "normal" any replacement they send will just bubble again. It typically takes more than a month before it becomes unusable and then you can't return it.

I can see Lulzbot would have a big problem with correcting this problem now... They probably have hundreds of these beds sitting there. As this was a known problem on the old beds (look at any youtube video of a Lulzbot printer and you will usually see big-ass bed bubbles), it really should have been fixed on the modular bed. Instead of making this my problem after spending hundreds of dollars on beds, I would like to see Lulzbot send me a different manufacturers bubble free PEI adhesive sheet for free. I would be even happier if it didn't cost me anything to send them the defective bed and have it repaired or replaced in such a way that it won't bubble anymore (or could be expected to last a reasonable amount of time- like at least a year).

My current update is that I've done maybe only 10 more short to medium duration prints of PETG and PLA on default cura settings (I was away on vacation), and the bubbling is continuing to get worse. I'll update the photo montage when it seems appropriate.

olantigh
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:56 am

Re: Bubbles Under Brand New Heated Beds (Yes Plural)

Post by olantigh » Sun May 06, 2018 1:43 am

Yeah mine has done the same! huge bubble at he back that distorts the print- at first I thought it could be a problem with the surface being dirty, so I cleaned it thoroughly and so this morning I saw a massive bubble at the back- and thought "oh s***!" sounds like everyone is having a similar problem? definitely keep an eye on this issue- however some of the products mentioned here are not available in the UK. Has had a result of me rethinking about buying another Taz 6 if this is a major problem- don't want to be replacing the PEI every 20 to 30 prints?
Sorry the second picture is upside down! but if you look closer there is a definite gap between the surface and the bed- seems to go away when the bed is cold.
Attachments
P5069721.JPG
big bubble at the back

User avatar
Bitman
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:22 am

Re: Bubbles Under Brand New Heated Beds (Yes Plural)

Post by Bitman » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:40 am

In my opinion, I think you should go with .3 for your initial layer thickness. It for some reason is what Wanhao profiles are showing. It is what I use for PLA, HIPS, and ABS, and I usually get good results. I know that the 3dprinterwiki.info web site says otherwise, but try both and see which one fixes your air bubbles.
Future of the beds with slides,new models! will start in summer 2018

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