PEI bed surface

General Hardware
101

I bought a separate adhesive (double sided but paper thin). I used the same method I use for vinyl or other stickers. Line up one edge while holding the other higher, just touch that edge and smooth it out then use a squeege (or credit card) and work back and forth pushing it down a little at a time while holding the other end above.

Took about 30 seconds to get the double back down (no bubbles) and then another 10 seconds to get the PEI lined up and pressed down (same general motion but since it’s stiff it goes much quicker.

Oh and I cleaned the glass with isopropyl alcohol first, since it originally had the PET film on it, it was already clean when I took that off but I wanted to be sure.

102

I just got my first 3d printer a couple of weeks ago. I was sort of talked into buying a couple of hips rolls. At the time I had only heard of ABS and PLA but knew almost nothing about them. I still can’t get a handle about how HIPS compares to the other two. I’ve been printing in my spare time (and this printing stuff takes up all of it, I think I have a 2D life now). It’s been hit or miss with results, but it seems like most 3d printing is hit or miss.

I’ve read this thread and it looks like most everybody is using ABS or PLA. I think Kenny mentioned printing with HIPS a few posts back but it was just a quick blurb along with other filaments. I was wondering if anybody has been using HIPS and would know whether the PEI stuff works well with it. Also, does the acetone work to clean off the bed or what can be used to get the bed cleaned (if you’re using HIPS) on PEI or PET.

By the way, what does everyone do to the bed after the prints? Do you clean each time or wait for it to look a certain way? My bed hasn’t looked to bad, so far I haven’t done anything after each print but the last print I’ve been working on for the last couple of days (which is a roughly triangular shaped tube about 100mm tall, 33mm X 22mm base, hollow, 3mm solid wall) was slipping off after it got about 8-10mm tall.

I read about the aquanet, got some, and it’s sticking ok now. Currently it’s about 60mm tall. I did just notice that the print shifted over some at about the 40mm height so that the outer wall of the tube is offset by about 1mm or so. I’m pretty sure the base hasn’t moved so something else happened. Sorry to have digressed some.

Assuming this print goes fine aside from the shifting, I’m guessing the aquanet did the trick (although I’ve heard a couple people say aquanet doesn’t work so I’m never sure when something does work. Does anyone know if I should clean off any aquanet residue after printing and before spraying again? And referring to the original question above what do you use to clean it off of the PET and PEI surfaces.

Sorry if it sounds like a ramble but I wanted to give a little background/insight into what I’ve worked with so far and what’s happening.

103

@jebcom

Here’s how I remove parts from PEI:
I have a 0.063 PEI sheet from Zorro. I decided not to glue it down, so I use bulldog binder clips along the edges. I cut off a bit of each corner so the sheet fits between the Taz bed corner holders. I examine the sheet before putting it down. It’s cupped very slightly in one direction, so I put it on the bed so the center makes contact, and the binder clips along the edges pull the edges down.

If a print does not come off easily, I just remove the binder clips, pick up the PEI sheet, and flex it to break the adhesion with the part. That breaks enough of the part loose that I can then either pull it off, or get the clam knife blade under it to further remove it.

I think I may have gotten lucky by choosing this size of sheet. If it was thinner, I suspect I would have to use adhesive to hold it to the bed. If it was thicker, it would not be so flexible, and maybe this method would not work so well.

BTW, my PEI did have protective clear sheet on both sides. Both sides of my sheet seem to be equally glossy.

I’ve found PEI amber glossy finish to be the superior material. FYI, I’m printing ABS at 85F on the bed.

My findings resemble yours:
I’ve also been doing this over the past few weeks. And as you described there is a natural ‘bow’ to the sheet. So, if the bow goes face down on the glass and you pull the edges down it works excellent. However, if you do it the other way it will distort the bottom of your print.

Other observations:
The 0.063 amber glossy sheet I am using is the ‘amber glossy’ on both sides sheet. I also order the ‘natural finish’ and it DOES NOT WORK, fyi! Do not buy the ‘natural finish’ PEI. I absolutely could not get it to stick to that surface. Even though the surface appears ‘sanded’ in texture the high glossy finish is amazingly superior (contrary to what you would think).

Also, because of the heat diffusion on the 0.063 PEI amber sheet that is bulldog binder clipped to the top of my glass bed, I had to disconnect the print fan on the extruder, so that my small parts would not ‘pop up’ or ‘curl’ off the bed. Also, disconnecting the print fan dramatically improved the quality of all the prints on top of the 0.063 PEI amber sheet that is just clamped to the print bed. I now get all perfectly level prints which pop right off when you bend the sheet.

Another thing… if the bed is too hot:
When you flex the PEI sheet, be sure to look at the bow after you flex it. I have found that when my thick PEI sheet heats up the bow can reverse when you flex it while hot. So be sure that you’re placing the sheet bow down when you go to replace it. Also, applying the PEI sheet while the glass bed is still hot will cause the bow to increase. I have found for best results to let the bed cool to below 35F before reapplying the sheet.

And the edges of the bed:
On my printer, the best print seems to be in the center of the print bed. The edges of the 0.063 cool too quickly and I can get parts that pop off or have flaws and unevenness. I’m currently blaming this on the thickness of the PEI and the lack of an enclosure around the heat bed. The temperature of my house can fluctuate over night and this maybe the source of most of my 6+ hour print issues.

I have another 0.040 PEI amber sheet on the way. If the performance is better, I’ll let you know. My hope is that it will solve all my probs?

104

Hello folks. I’ve been looking at adding a KITTAZ to my stable and spent some time on the forums here. I also noticed that the new TAZ 5 comes with a PEI print surface! I am the guy that the original poster of this thread linked back to on the SeeMeCNC forum. That thread is about a year old now and has 20K views from all over the internet. And, believe it or not, I am still printing 5+ hours a day on that same piece of PEI!

I get lots of PMs and emails asking about PEI, installing it, etc. Several weeks ago I consolidated the long thread into a single post that covers PEI start to finish mostly focused on the best way to install and care for it.

I did spend time experimenting with not gluing it down and on a 12" diameter Rostock build plate, it would not stay as flat as I need it. If you adhere it to one side of your borosilicate plate with the 3M tape, you can simply flip the plate over to print on glass/glue stick/hair spray or your favorite concoction. At this thickness, the insulate properties of PEI is really not an issue. Just let your bed equilibrate for a little longer.

One other comment, I only print PLA and ABS on PEI. Some other filaments stick way too well and can actually destroy the PEI. NinjaFlex is one of those. I simply put some blue tape down to print NF and protect the PEI.

cheers,
Michael

105

Michael!

Thanks for all the great research. The word about PEI is getting out. It has been a great surface. We use a thick sheet with a really thick gnarly adhesive. As you point out, it really isn’t a “consumable” like other tapes, since it just lasts and lasts.

We use it routinely with HIPS, ABS, and PLA. It also works great with T-Glase (remove part at 35C). It doesn’t work with ninjaflex–for that we recommend bare glass or possibly putting glue on the bed as a barrier between the part and PEI.

Thanks again,

-Jeff

106

Thanks Jeff, it was great talking to you this morning. Prior to discovering PEI I spent a lot of time researching and experimenting with print surfaces for ABS and PLA. I discovered that printing on paper - your basic ink jet printer paper - was amazing too, leaving a beautiful surface finish that was easily restored. I used a releasable spray adhesive to attach it and could get 5 or more prints from a sheet. But it was still a pain for production printing. I am very persnickety about the aesthetics of my prints, here’s an example:

The “open weave” infill is very difficult to print reliably on most surfaces. The only two surfaces that I can achieve 100% success with these parts are paper and PEI.

cheers,
Michael

107

Ugh, 11 pages to sift through, I think I already read this thread a few times a long time ago…

I was reluctant to try it but after playing with the mini, and it’s PEI surface, I think I’m sold on PEI. It’s literally, press print, finish print, pop off part, rinse and repeat…sort of amazing really. So I think I will try the upgrade for my Taz4.

SO MY QUESTION:

In summary, what thickness sheet should I go for the 12" taz4 bed? .03" or .04"?? where should I order it? and is it better to put strips of adhesive tape or one large sheet of adhesive?

Thanks.

108

JonathanB, if you read the second link “PEI start to finish” it summarizes everything into one nicely edited and succinct post, no need to read 11 pages of trial and error! take a look at that post and your questions will all be answered!

There is no tangible difference between the recommended .03" or .04".

I recommend the Amazon .03" as it has a matte side and glossy side so you can choose which you prefer. You can always make the glossy into matt with 2000 grit sandpaper though. I also recommend 1" tape strips as per my link, it’s easiest and works great.

regards,
Michael

109

Thanks for linking that thread!

As reply to a question above: I read that you absolutely should not clean the PEI Surface with acetone. Ordered my via Amazon now. Can’t wait

110

Clean it with isopropyl alcohol. I use the pre-packaged pads you can get at the drug store.

111

Ofcourse I read the summarized version. It’s great. Just wanted to make sure I heard it from the horses mouth :slight_smile:…

thanks for doing the research also, it’s really helpful, as build plate adhesion was one of the big problem area’s for 3DP. It’s pretty much solved now.

Now, I heard a lot of people talking about how PEI can either stick too well or not enough, depending on first layer height

I notice on the mini, it prints the first layer EXTREMELY CLOSE to the plastic, I would say, almost mashing and scraping the first layer into the PEI, I would have thought this would have stuck them on there never to come off, but every print in ABS has held on with extreme prejudice and then has come off magically with ease afterwards, the best part is, the base of the part has literally no signs of lines or layering, it looks like a perfect, uniform piece of injection molded plastic, it’s nuts!

So my question is, for my Taz, when I install the PEI, should I be still using the sheet of paper method to guage first layer height or should I do like on the mini and make sure it’s mashed in there. What do you think?

112

Yes, PEI is not a silver bullet, you still need to have the proper first layer height. You can get it to stick TOO well!

If it’s scraping or mashing, then the Z=0 is probably not set properly. That sounds too close to me.

Yes, the sheet of paper method works perfectly fine for PEI. I really don’t think mashing in there is a good idea. Firstly, doesn’t it leave a little “lip” or ridge around the base of the part? If you are after very good dimensional accuracy (like I am with my reels) the first layer has to be correct too.

Personally, I use a .001" stainless steel spark plug gauge for setting Z=0. It is thinner than paper and I get a more accurate setting. It “feels” different than the paper snag too and I find that easier to reproduce consistently.

One comment on setting Z=0. If you use the software controller (Prontorface or whatever) to jog down using the jog buttons, they only have .1mm increment for their finest setting. You can use “G1 Z123” (where 123 is your precise number) to get very fine resolution. For instance, G1 Z.02. It makes a difference if you take the time to do this.

cheers,
Michael

113

As a side note, it was Ben you were talking to on the phone, FYI.

-Jeff

114

Ah yes! An elderly moment for me.

115

So after a lot of playing around I have finally found what has been an excellent solution (for me). I am currently printing the best quality prints (probably has more to do with a carefully set up printer) and incredibly reliable bed adhesion.

I experimented with a log of different PEI thicknesses but ultimately found the .06’’ with the 468 adhesive to be the best option.

The plastic is thick enough where I’m not worried about damaging it, and while it was bowed toward the center, the adhesive is holding it down nicely.

Using a bed temperature of 50 for PLA and 100 for ABS, All of my parts are sticking perfectly and coming off easily. The trick, as I’m sure you are all aware is getting the proper bed leveling and Z height adjustment. (a 16th of a turn makes a difference!)

These are the things I tried and failed before ending up with this solution -

  • Making a new bed out of 1/8th PEI - too bowed, can level or keep straight.
    .03’’ PEI on the glass bed - While this worked well, I was concerned about gouging the PEI while extracting parts.
116

Great Chris. The .06" will indeed work well with the 3M tape but you can save money with the .03/.04" PEI. They work equally well, are 1/2 the price and there is no issue with gouging. It is plenty thick enough. My original PEI is still in use after well over a year of daily printing. I’ve even sanded a few bone-headed gouges out from my early days when I had a couple of parts stick too well and use a sharp spatula to remover them. I’ve since found non-destructive ways to remove stubborn parts.

117

This thread has made the news. :wink:

I mentioned the story of how we came about using PEI for LulzBot printers to a reporter (in a longish interview about a range of things). Anyway, he wrote it up. It is off in some minor details, but it captures the essence of what is going on. See second half of this article.

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_27785837/3-d-printing-tech-gives-tortoise-new-life?source=hot-topic-bar

-Jeff

118

I find this surface, on my Taz 5, while very sticky, to really be a gigantic nuisance. I hate that parts don’t come off easier even when cool. I’ve already damaged the surface. And it seems like my bed goes out of level every time I take a part off. It seems like I have to have a fist fight with my printer after every print to get the part off the bed.

I have a custom bed for my replicator 2 that I really like. It’s an aluminum tray with a recess for a glass bed and magnets on each end. The heater is attached to the tray not the glass. And the tray is what you level. It stays in the printer. Then there is a removable glass bed that has handles on each end, with magnets glued to the bottom. This glass bed drops into the recess of the aluminum tray and the magnets paired on the ends keep it from shifting. With that printer, it has been upgraded with a full enclosure which really is a must for printing many materials. Even PLA does better with one.

All I do is apply garnier fructis #5 hairspray to the glass, then place it in the aluminum tray and heat the tray to 100c for ABS. Parts never come off. In the rare case where a larger part pulls up on the corners a little, I just slice with brim and that solves the problem. When the bed cools the part is literally loose on the bed. As soon as the print finishes I can reach in, and pull the glass bed out of the aluminum tray by the handles. And let it cool quickly outside of the printer and away from the heated aluminum tray. And I almost never have to re-level because the tray sees very little force on it, because part removal from the bed occurs outside the printer. And parts fall off by themselves anyway.

Long story short, I am going to build this system for my Taz. Because I find the current set up to be too cumbersome and problematic.

Sorry for being negative.

119

I’m curious to know what techniques you use.

-Jeff

120

Jeff,

#1 - MAKE SURE your Z height is spot on. I can’t stress this enough. PEI adheres much more tenaciously and getting parts to come off requires a near perfect Z=0. It is a best practice to do this anyway. I would say that 90+% of the part removal issues I’ve helped others solve have been due to an improper Z=0.

Next up…

Parts must be removed with shear force - meaning you need to lift an edge first. Once an edge is lifted, the part will usually pop off on its own. If not, you can insert a thin spatula (no sharp edges) under the detached edge and lever it off.

Let the part cool for 30 seconds or so, this minimizes distortion of the still-soft part and usually encourages an edge to detach on its own.

Larger parts are more troublesome so if the above don’t work, a shot of cold air in a can (see first post) focused on an edge of the part will always cause it to pop off. This is the fastest way to do it, if you have time you can place your build plate/glass in the freezer for a couple of minutes. I’ve only had to resort to this with a full plate part that had a lot of surface area contacting the plate.