I get it. I put a cage around a bird that wants to be free and I’m charging people to see the caged bird…
what if I told you that after a few months, possibly a year, with all the proceeds I make from this caged bird venture, I will let them both free, and then the iron from the cage will be used by the local people to make nails and horseshoes for their benefit… 
**edit, I removed some of the more “direct sales” advertisements I had posted. Sorry about that. I got a little carried away. I won’t make any references to anything we’re offering for sale in this thread anymore. This thread is about the development of the HOTBOX enclosure as an open source unit. I will be switching over the license on the files to a fully free open source license in due time. Thanks.
I know this isnt the best forum to ask this question, but it at least is germaine (to use a legal term). How is what this advertisement for a purchasable kit (with free open source designs) not the exact same thing that Lulzbot does when it sells any products? Or is it that lulzbot just has taken a policy to not allow sale of products on their forums (which i can see could be a steep and slippery slope)?
I admittedly dont understand open source licensing terms either.
guys, have been talking to Jebba through PM. Everything is cool…
#1. I was wrong to put up direct advertising for sales…I took those down and I apologize for that. I took them down out of my own will, not from request of admin, basically they said they didn’t care, Lulzbot and Jebba are cool enough to let it slide and keep this thread going which I respect greatly! most mods would have had my head by now, so I’m greatful for that. I took the direct advertising down, because at the end of the day, it’s wrong to try to sell something in an open sourced thread. We will find other ways for that . This thread is not the place for that and we’ll keep the direct advertisement of the KITS WE’RE SELLING, out of it…ok ok…that was the last advertisement! ever…I swear… 
lol.
#2. lulzbot is based on a fully open source free to distribute, re-work and re-sell license…NOW, how lulzbot ever got into the position they’re in is an awesome testament to the power of their skills to run a fully open source company YET make a profit at the same time…which, to me, is a very new concept…cutting edge, so I applaud them…I’d love to know the background details of how it all went down though? How would you tell an investor that your company sales model is basically non proprietary and anyone else can use all the work you create to try to earn profit also. LOL. But anway, that’s another discussion.
#3. Basically what Jebba and Lulzbot are trying to purvey is that everything should be open source, under a license such as the GPLv3. So basically, I’ve licensed the files for the HOTBOX under an Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike
CC BY-NC-SA license, meaning you can do everything you can with the GPLv3. just not commercial distribution, ie. you can’t turn around with my files and use them to earn profit etc…
Lulzbot would like to see that changed to a GPLv3. AND, in addition to that, in a perfect world, they would strive for me to give my kits away for free also…lol…but well, that’s not going to happen, since, last I checked, the Taz 5 was 2195US! lol… again, lulzbot never directly said this, it’s just the ideal they are striving for.
So, I’m starting to understand the CC license movement, but as far as the whole movement to make hardware free, well, I just don’t see that happening for obvious reasons…but it’s still interesting to think about.
anyway, hopefully I explained this properly and that clears up a few things. Just want to thank everyone for all the support for this project. I can’t wait to see everyone’s build and what awesome tweaks and mods you’re going to make…
oh and guys, lil tip, be generous with the hot glue on the light strips, the heat sits at the top of the box and basically dries out weak layer of glue on the back of the LED strips…
so just to make sure, if we want the kit you are still selling them right?
I completely understand them not wanting the advertisement but in the end its a win win situation. We get parts for cheap and you make a small amount of change for sourcing.
Hey Nb,
Yep, ofcourse we have about 5 kits left from the original 10 ordered, parts are slowly coming in. Will be another few weeks before we start shipping kits out. We will probably continue to sell them also, but I won’t be doing any blatant advertising in this thread. We’ll keep it focused on the development side.
Actually from talking to Jeff, they don’t seem to care too much about the advertising for the kits. But I took most of the more blatant ads down anyway just out of respect for the forum norms and rules. When everything is good to go, I’ll will PM everyone who was interested and we can go from there.
Thanks for the support! Can’t wait to see you build! Keep in mind, I posted a link to all the files for this build a few pages back so you can get started on some of the 3D prints, reading the instructions etc. Everything is up to date, any updates will be posted on that link. I will probably change the font to lowercase in the instruction manual eventually and since we’re using a better power supply in the kits, I have yet to add one more 3D print file for a bracket to hold that PSU…but it’s not a super critical file.
Bravo JB I’ve never seen your sales adds as intrusive–mainly because you first gave lots of info and feed back for everyone here. But now that I see others putting up sales adds for their products, AS THEIR FIRST POSTS ON THE FORUM, I can see how it could quickly get out of hand to where the forum could turn into a cork board for everyone’s crap. 
No, they weren’t that bad but still. Ultimately it’s about being fair to the forum and everyone else…it’s an open source development forum, not craigslist or ebay so we should try to keep it that way. That doesn’t mean we’re going to stop selling kits though
Finally got around to looking at the files. Quick thing could you upload the instructions as a PDF. Pretty easy to do via the print command. But might be best to control it yourself.
Easier to view the instructions on a mobile device if its in pdf.
Done. They’re uploaded in docx and pdf now. I added the .stl file for the new style PSU also, the instructions have been updated accordingly.
So for guys who ordered our kits, we have about half the parts in already, they’re looking really good and I think you will be happy with them. It’s going to save you a lot of time and hassle. Will keep posted when everything get’s in.
Hey, just checking in here.
Ya, the main gripe is the NC license. All would be just swell if it was under the GPLv3, for instance. I didn’t think the advertising was bad or a problem, except that it was for something NC–that made me lose sleep. I don’t think we’ve ever deleted posts except blatant spam.
The fact that your project is NC (non-commercial) and is uploaded to a commercial enterprise dedicated to free software and open source hardware is a bit curious though. I read the thread before you revealed it was NC. Are Aleph Objects employees prohibited from viewing/using the files, since it is a under NC license? If they aren’t prohibited, under what provision are they allowed? In fact, can we host them, since they are NC? Out of the terabytes of data in the Aleph ecosystem, are these the few bytes I’m prohibited from reading and using?
Thanks for your consideration,
-Jeff
Jeff,
The whole reason why I went with NC is that my logic is that since I’m just starting out with this, I wouldn’t mind developing this into a side business, I don’t really expect it to generate that much money but it’s a fun little side project. So basically I’m trying to make money with it by selling kits. Afterall, that is how things work in the real world. You create something and then sell it for profit. So I just thought if we made it gplv3 right off the bat, then basically anyone can take all my hard work and research, all the files I put up for free and go and start selling THE FILES or KITS also, which I don’t really want quite yet because, being a poor designer, I need the money .
About the NC license…lol…Jeff, they are pretty meaningless actually, it’s not a patent, you basically can do whatever you want anyway, who’s going to stop you? I have no legal way of stopping anyone from replicating, reproducing the design or anything. I put the NC license on there mostly because I didn’t want people to take the FREE file package, instructions, stl, dox files etc.and then turn around and start selling that information as their own file package. That’s about the only thing that the NC license might provide some legal coverage for, I believe, otherwise they’re pretty meaningless. Everything else is in the realm of IP law, which I don’t have a patent YET and I’d have less then a year from display date to patent it, that’s if it’s even patent able at all…blah blah big mess, don’t want to deal with it.
Also, if you’re referring to GrabCad as being a free database, I’ve been part of the GrabCad community for over two years and I’m quite well known there, I had contacted admin about hosting the files there and they allowed me. After all, the files are being offered for free.
Even with the NC license YOU pretty much still can do whatever you want! you just can’t turn around and sell copies of my files, or you can’t turn around and sell the EXACT same kits that we sell you, although technically I don’t think I could enforce that. I’m just saying, don’t take the EXACT work I put up for free and turn around and use it for profit. But I can’t stop you from getting idea’s and inspiration from my design and building your own box and kits and selling those…but it has to be your own work. That’s all the NC license is saying imo.
If Lulzbot is interested in this design and interested in working with us, then perhaps we can make a deal of some sorts. But this would be a monetary deal, just keep in mind, I need to eat . If you were interested, I would love to do a royalty deal, you take this design under your wings, develop it (hopefully I could stay on board as a design consultant) etc. etc. I don’t think there is a HUGE market but it would be nice to have the resources of a larger, established company like Lulzbot developing it. This way you could do whatever you want with it, make it GLpv3, and sell a nice finished metal version. Keep in mind, I don’t have a patent on this and probably won’t get one so you could technically just copy the design . But I’d have to label you a COPIER then
As far as hosting the files, why wouldn’t you be able to host files that I’ve posted for free already I’d welcome it. Can’t see how the NC license would stop you from doing that, in fact, that’s why I choose it. It’s basically an open source license, just with a commercial distribution clause.
*quick little update, we have 2, possibly 3 kits left, just waiting on someone to confirm, so we’re almost out. The parts have been coming in, they look Awesome!!! I think everyone is going to be super happy with their kits. All around an awesome little package that’s going to save you tons of time and hassle.
We’re basically just waiting on some of the hardware to arrive and then we can start shipping out! So if you ordered a kit. Please just hold tight.
Thank You.
Just wanted to post an update, here is a pic of my version of the enclosure that Jonothan has designed. It really does make a difference I was able to print the part shown below on a 38hr print in ABS basically using the full build platform of my Taz 5. There were still some minor cracks, but I would call this a huge accomplishment considering the size and the material. ABS parts this size are really tough to build! So the point is the enclosure makes a difference!
Looks good! Nice build…thanks for sharing…Yes, an enclosure is a must for print in ABS. Good to see large prints can be done also. For small cracks, just use some acetone to seal the back up…
did you print the .stl files from the link I put up?
Is that a manifold? are you planning on casting it in metal? That’s one of the reasons I got the Taz to begin with, to do some lost casting in aluminum for dirtbike parts…
I am a college student and I have a program at my school where I get to work for 6 months and then go to school for 6 months. Recently I had the opportunity to interview with Stratasys and their machines are absolutely amazing. I got to see one of the BIG FDM printers up close and personal. The heat inside those things are so nice that you can literally SEE the heat inside of the machine. The parts that come off are amazing also. So ya, a heated chamber is definitely the way to go.
Just think about it, if you use a hot glue gun, and you put one strip down and let it cool, and then lay another hot strip down on top of it, it won’t stick as well as if you layed both strips down while they were hot, same principal goes for 3D printing, especially with ABS since it seems to cool and harden quicker. Even with an enclosure, it’s best to print parts so that the layers get put down as quickly as possible for best adhesion… large prints, where sections of the layering have time to cool before the next pass, can have problems with adhesion. Pretty straight forward stuff… the heated enclosure helps to keep those layers slightly less cool so they stick better on the next pass… NOW, if you could heat those layers up almost to the point of being molten, then you’d get spectacular adhesion… so if you were able to keep the temperature in the 70-100+degree range without killing components and hardware in the process, then you’re talking…
That’s my call out for people to experiment with the Hotbox and heating it…try adding heaters, heat lamps etc. push the limits and experiment. liquid cooled couplings on the steppers, replace ABS parts with CNC, mount the electronics externally (just the mobo, otherwise you’d be infringing on stratysis’s rediculous external gantry patent) and anything else to get the heat up. Fun fun fun…
It is going to be a casting, however, it is way to large for me to try the lost wax process at home, that would be one dangerous situation! About 16lbs of molten aluminum is what it would take. Either way it works pretty awesome. I am going to experiment with a heater on the inside similar to something like the attached link. Planning on relocating the electronics out side the box, and adding heat sinks and cooling fans to the steppers. After an almost 40hr build the steppers are extremely hot!
http://iscenclosurecooling.com/products/din-rail-heaters/ptc-fan-heater-cr027-400-650w/
oh that’s interesting, I can’t wait to start making bike parts using casting, we need to start a whole new thread for that… 16lbs is insane? looks like a car or traktor part? You’re going to have this done by a foundry then? Can you share the progress with this in a new thread? thanks.
When I first started designing the enclosure, I looked into heaters like that, but then realized I’d have to upgrade many parts on the printer to withstand the heat like you’re mentioning…just didn’t feel like going THAT extreme yet. I need like 3-4 printers to play around with…if only I was rich. Another option instead of a heater like that would be to put a heat lamp inside…one of those industrial one’s they use to keep food warm.
Do you realize you are trying to convince someone who had sales of $1.5 million last month selling open source hardware, that you need NC to develop a business? I realize you will be able to convince nearly everyone out there of this logic. You will be wrong, of course, which is what I prove daily. And so have others. But you can continue with that myth/FUD, I know it is ingrained.
Of course you can’t stop someone with an NC license, which is meaningless as you say. It is very easy to get around. So why do it? You say you want it for the money, but anyone that wanted to compete with you on this would have zero problem due to your license. So what is the point?
I’m not referring to grabcad. I know little about that site. I don’t care what you do there.
I know you wouldn’t be able to stop me if I wanted to copy your box. I think you think this is about a box, which I totally don’t care about. This is about a battle between freely available information/dialog and people who want to lock that down. The people in favor of locking things down have been winning for my entire lifetime, and probably for all of history. I don’t know why you can’t go to the other 10000000000000000 places that host proprietary stuff and use their servers to host your projects and closed ideas. Why come to one of the very few places on earth dedicated free software and open source hardware and dump on it? Thankfully you weren’t there for the creation of Wikipedia.
There is no chance in hell of this EVER happening. If you don’t get it yet, we are a free software and open source hardware company. I have ZERO interest in your project. I regret it exists.
You’ve posted them for “free”? What do you mean by that? Under what license provision am I able to host your proprietary files?
“It’s basically blue, except it is red”. Ya, that makes sense.
-Jeff
